Geronimo!

Sorry for anything said that went down the wrong way for anyone. No harm intended.

Ding Ding Ding! Spain’s reigning Queen has come back with a serious left hook (ha, I made a pun there). And although we seem to have an empty stadium, I’m going to try to worm in around the points, as they happen, as it’s getting hard to do it the other way, dissertation for dissertation. Here goes:

Queen: Um. I think you just proved my point. “A good family life, of any kind, always benefits a child. Even if it’s not the one I’d pick (the family life, not the child, I’d pick those babies in a minute). Real love and affection, and security from a family that may not fit my ideal traditional preference, wins over a lousy, kid beating, impoverished, 2 parents of opposite sex and married but screaming at eachother all the time family any day.”

Me: OK, agreeing that some things (like the welfare of children) are more important than standing on principle doesn’t mean I’ve come over. And I’m doing my damndest not to prove your points, so ouch. No. Any where we can agree is good with me. I like finding the points of agreement, with anyone. Even you. Really, I type in jest here.

Queen: Thats what I’m trying to say. So if good family life, of any kind…wins…why the gripe about “…then comes marriage, then comes (fill in the blank) with a baby carriage? I’m surely going to ruffle many colorful feathers here, but I really wonder. When did we begin not only to accept, but celebrate, even envy, women and couples, who have children before they even talk walking down the aisle?”

Me: Because it was a good title, that flowed well into my little rant. Or in my world, it did. And it does cause me some concern that we, as a culture, are all so titillated by celebrity, that we don’t care a whit about what they may or may not be doing, as long as we can see pictures of it. As we mentioned before, that kind of obsession in itself is disturbing. Blend that with good cause for a rockin’ religious conservative freak out, and wow. You’ve got a humdinger there. I’m not sure that’s how you spell humdinger. But I will stand by my statement that this course we, as a culture, seem to be going down troubles me. Clearly, it is of no negative consequence to you, and I accept that. Again, I concede to agree to disagree. Respectfully. There is nothing that is going to go on here in blogland that will sway you, or me, from our convictions here. I just really don’t want to start dinner, so I’m still going.

Queen: I think your first paragraph answers your initial question. When did we begin to celebrate it? When women took it upon themselves to be nontraditional and take care of kids with our without a man. When they either had their own or took others in. When it became all about love, and not all about love as defined by a traditional conservative. Just all about love. That’s it. That’s all. You can’t try and define love. You can’t define it as only within a marriage between a man and a woman. You can’t try and define it as only with a walk down the aisle. [I will insert here, for ease of conversation flow, that I did not, nor do not, define love. Or what marriage is. What I will say here, and what will no doubt piss some people off, is that I believe God did. I know, I know, this opens a ginormous can of worms, but that is my belief. But what started this whole little debate was my beliefs. Which anyone who likes to can totally disagree with. That doesn’t threaten what I feel to be true, or make me not like them. Of course, by now, the converse may not be. By merely stating that little bomb above, I may have plenty of people (like all 3 who reads this) decide I am not like-worthy.] That’s the problem here. You started this entire discussion asking the question when we began to accept and celebrate anything other than the traditional way. We began to accept and celebrate when we (me, anyway) realized it was about love. Not your love. Not my love. But (insert person here’s) love. You can’t contain it. You can’t define it to only fit your head’s idea.

Me: I think we all end up defining it to fit into our head’s ideas. In some way, shape or form. Some just have broader definitions, and others narrower. Oops. I used the word narrow in relation to myself. Does that count as right-hooking my own chin? Yikes. Anyway. Maybe none of us should do said defining of love, but we’re human, and somehow do. If we didn’t, none of these sorts of conversations would even occur.

Queen: As for the idea that most of us Non Christians find the judgemental Christians coming off as
“we’re better”–it’s not all in my head. You said it was a very subtle difference. And when you start trying to legislate or make me think anyone but the traditional mom and dad family is “not right” it goes from subtle to pushy.

Me: 1. Are you saying that I did, in fact, move from subtle to pushy? Or are you speaking in generalized terms concerning many Christians you know, or have come in contact with. 2. Either way, and I do hope it’s the latter, and you are dead on. It is not all in your head. I hope I didn’t convey that at some point. I see it too. All the time. And it pisses me off. Christians amongst themselves go at it all the time. A waste of energy. Why can’t we just go with the things we do agree on? Any of us? Haven’t you heard the joke about Christians being the only army that kills its own wounded? Anyway. I can rant all I want. You can rant all you want. But at the end of the day, I’m trying to talk about issues that bother me, not specific people. I named names in this case (the celebrities) because it just so happened it was their pictures associated with the issue at hand. And I don’t know them. And I’m not going to hurt them in my tiny corner of cyber-space (although, maybe it doesn’t matter - maybe I should never name names). You do this too, I think, have a little rant now and then, and not get specific. Except for that woman knitting in her car. I’m pretty sure that was specific. And your finger was specific.

Queen: Did I mention I’m married. To a man. With two kids? I’m not unlike you my dear. Not at all. And I think you need to remember that neither is the nontraditional family.

Me: Oh yeah. I knew that. I’ve been over to your site quite a bit. I like it. The Kaiser? Your son? Pumpkin? Yep. Pretty square. Just like us. Or real close. My hubby and I don’t share the Playboy thing. Remember? We’re prudes. Christians are renown for being sexually oppressed. I’m sure they’re are tons of jokes I could recall, but I can’t right now.

Queen: You need to get to know some of us. We do laundry, carpool to school, and sign permission slips. We pack lunches and change diapers and care and love just the same. Our lives are just as boring and just as domestic. I think thats where the real confusion may be. That it can’t possibly be true that these families are much more like yours than they are different.

Me: Alright. This is sounding like yall are somewhere on some other planet, and we are off on our little judgemental piece of space, and never the twain shall meet (what is a twain?), because we won’t open up long enough to get to know you. I just don’t see it that way. Really. I already see us all in the big ol’ mess of raising children and having families and doing the laundry, and signing the slips, and picking up the dog poop, together. I didn’t think I needed to stop and make an effort to get to know you, or others like you, because at least around here, we already find ourselves friends with all sorts of families, some even seemingly crazy liberal like yours (I’m still grinning here). I wasn’t aware of being really out to lunch on the differences any of us may have. And the more people you know, obviously, the more differences we’ll have. Just because I expressed a cultural concern doesn’t mean I hole up, thinking the the entire earth is going to revolve around my little perspective, and when it doesn’t, I ain’t going out there. And then God forbid I talk with anyone who would ever hold an opinion different that mine. I think I said earlier, in an email, that it is good, to me, to get to know all sorts of people from all walks of life, even *gasp* liberal ones. I really love R2Ks, and she puts liberal right there at the top of her blog! But worse, really, she won’t ever eat a cheeseburger with me. It’s sad, really. But this stuff stretches me. Grows me a bit. Confirms some things, and changes others. I was just expressing an opinion in the same way any of us do. I didn’t understand, or I didn’t agree with something, so I said it.

I didn’t just come right out and say “all those who partake of this way of life and don’t align with me in entirity are just wrong, dead wrong”. I said certain things make me gag. Or mad. Or I’m fed up. But I didn’t point a finger and just say “you are wrong”. I was trying, again, to express my opinion. And in spite of something you’ve had to say before, that “its like religion or politics. Either you tolerate and listen to the other side’s reasons, or you act like an ass and try and convert everyone to your ways. Admittedly I think all cry-it-out parents are wrong. But it works for them. So who am I to tell them not too? I also think Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. are wrong…but so long as they are happy and not hurting me, live and let live baby. (Republicans suck too, by the way)”, and that I have done the crying it out, and am Christian, and even *forgive me* voted Republican before, if I could get to blogher, I’d love to meet you, and many others face to face, go have a drink, and lots of guffaws. No political/cultural/religious quizzes involved. Because I don’t think I act like an ass and try to convert any one else. Just don’t make me say that F word. You can say it. I am just too much my Momma’s girl to do it.

This probably concludes our little isolated cyber-space bounce around the ring. I think it’s safe to say that all opinions are personal, and not meaning to be foisted upon another. I can avoid dinner no longer. Any input is still welcome, unless it’s ugly to me or the Queen. You can say it, but as she says, say it nicely. Good evening and good weekend.

It may just be you and me, Queenie, duking it out here, but here I come again. You say:

Whew. I’m glad I came back to check how this discussion was going! Ok, first of all I was up late…but am also out here on the West Coast…so it wasn’t as late as it may seem. No late night partying going on over here in Los Angeles (hard to believe, I know) just a teething baby and colds all around. Nothing like sitting at the computer, nursing and blogging until midnight.

You make great points. And I think we actually agree on a lot of these issues despite our religious differences. Man should be accountable. Man should honor a commitment. Man should set good examples. I guess my issue with the entire post is the assumption that I’m making here. And that just might be me…but the idea that the world is going to h-e-double hockey sticks because of what we *think* is going on with some random hollywood couples. Or because someone chooses to not have a traditional family. I say, and here is where I think we’ll disagree, that we’re actually a stronger society for this. Huh? You say to yourself. The decline of so called christian morals in america making us stronger? How so?

Well, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say these nontraditional families are every bit as loving, caring and stable as the chrisian traditional family. I think they challange what you see as acceptable. I think they force you to think outside what you know to be true. I think they are every bit as valid and upstanding as a traditional marriage and family. Just because it isn’t what you are used too. Or what you think is good and right…doesn’t mean its bad. Think about that. And I know there is no offense meant and none is taken. But when you just *assume* mom and dad are “ideal” you assume anything but is “bad.”
I have no problem with people rather seeing a traditional family…but I do have a problem when those people assume the alternative is somehow no good. You assume that your traditional family is better. Superior. And there in lies the problem. We can all agree that not everyone raises their kids the same…we can all agree that not every family is the same. Its the assumption that somehow because your idea is “divine” or “faith” based, that its “better” than those who are not.

Now, I have no idea what these people are really like…but let’s just take Brad and Angelia for example. Have you taken any african babies into your home lately? Gone and done any real charity work in thrid world countries? Seems like Angelina is being rather “jesus” like to me. But those things seem to get discounted when we hear she isn’t married. I guess her good work and love for those kids is invalid because she did it (to start anyway) without a man. How silly! And now that she has a man…its the wrong one. Because he was married. But we don’t know what went on there. For all we know, Jennifer wouldn’t have babies and was a raging alcoholic who beat Brad. We have no clue. Just the same as we don’t know if Brad is just a dog. And while I hope that man can overcome his primal urges, and will always expect him too. I can’t say I’m shocked when he doesn’t.

This is fun. I love discussions like this.

And I’m back:

We have 7 african babies, and just got back from a 6 month stay in a third world country. I just don’t talk about the black skinned babies, because, as you know, we conservatives are really huge biggots. And the stay in the 3rd world country was at their poshest republican funded resort. I was there with the Bush’s. We were talking about how great the world would be if we could send all the liberals to Iraq. I really am kidding here. We were just talking about my cheese grits recipe. Seems Laura’s a fan. I’m going to take your above comment, and do like last time…

So…where to start. Oh, first, of course I make great points. I’m brilliant and always right. That has everything to do with my being Christian. Didn’t you see that in the handbook of any church you may have ever visited? We’re always right? We know everything because God tells us directly? He has our Cingular plan. Anyway. I don’t think I’ll go over to your extrememely dark side (grinning here) and say it makes us stronger. But certainly diversity does. Whhhaaaa? Did I just contradict myself. Maybe, but what I mean is the kind of diversity that I feel could be harmful, not helpful. But that, again, is just me coming from my religious cult background (grinning again). Next month, the mother ship is landing. If you want to go with us, you have to be in Cowpens, SC at 1:37 am on the 28 of February. Leap year, duh.

However, there is no way around the fact that I feel, as do some other freaks out there, that certain aspects of diversity aren’t all good. I get it that these are things you think are. Point taken. (hey, I just got a “great post” comment on my first of this illustrious series…nanny nanny boo boo…another conservative geek) We can agree to disagree. But I will never say that this means they somehow cannot be as loving and caring as I, in all my perfection of superior family James Dobson values, am. (more grinning) That would be just arrogant on my part, and we know I’d never be that way. On the point of seeing others doing it another way, I won’t say I see it as bad. But I’d be lying if I said I saw it as just as good. And yep. This can get me in trouble here. But I promise I’m saying it with as much humility as possible. I’m not on my soap box, just sharing my ever enlightened heart (still grinning).

As far as the faith issues go. Here it can get even more tricky. I’m sure you understand that if you really believe in something. Really truly have it at your core of being, then you can’t just divorce yourself from it to see something “another way”. But you can treat any situation you may feel you wouldn’t choose with love and respect. We may teach our children what we feel to be true, but we never ever equate that with we’re better than. It’s a subtle difference, but one we try to achieve, and one we feel is sorely lacking in many people of all sorts of faiths and beliefs. You mentioned Jesus. He was never, is never, about condemning people. He loved/loves people. He may have, and did, state what he knew (now I’m speaking from my understanding of his teachings, and knowing you may not buy this) to be good and right for us, and ask for change of a life style (like the prostitute at the well), but he was the first to sup with the outcasts of that society. Befriend all. Help all. Now I’m calling you an outcast. No. I’m not. I’m just talking about that biblical situation. And one more point, to try to clarify/understand each other. When anyone holds anything to be true, to their inner most being, in this case, our faith, it is very difficult, if not impossible to think everything else is equally true. If it were, we wouldn’t care so strongly about what we live. I’m sure like the points of life you want to instill in your children, like run fast whenever they encounter someone like me. ; )

And yep, absolutely. Angelina is being pretty darned “Jesus”. No doubt about it. And I, personally, do not throw the baby out with bath water, even if she poops in it. That is good. And good is good. If I had any help I wanted with my current children, the cash to travel freely, and someone to cook and clean my toilets (not cook the toilets, cook meals) while I built a hospital in Zimbabwee, I’d better darn well use it wisely and get to stacking bricks. I give her props for that. And especially for taking poor Bradly in if he’s been beaten by a raging alcoholic hubby beater. Poor Brad. And despite all my ranting, I sincerely hope for a wonderful family life for all of them, and any children they may have in the future. A good family life, of any kind, always benefits a child. Even if it’s not the one I’d pick (the family life, not the child, I’d pick those babies in a minute). Real love and affection, and security from a family that may not fit my ideal traditional preference, wins over a lousy, kid beating, impoverished, 2 parents of opposite sex and married but screaming at eachother all the time family any day.

Top that, Miz Queen Thing.

The Queen of Spain stopped by sometime, looks like early this morning (what were you doing up so late? Trouble sleeping? I was up at 4 myself) and had some very interesting points on my previous post. I started to just leave a comment back to her, in an effort to elaborate, but instead, found myself writing another post. I hope, Ms. Queen, it is OK with you that I copy your comment here, and go on with this vein this morning. Looks like we may hold (respectfully, of course) some different ideas on this part of our culture, and inviting others into the fray may get my traffic boosted prove educational.

The Queen wrote:

I think everyone wants love.
I think everyone would agree that commitments should be honored.
But I have to ask…how much do you really know about any of these people? What you see on Oprah? Or at the checkout counter? We don’t know the real stories, or the real lives of ANYone of the couples you mentioned. It may have looked like husband stealing. But do we really know what went on? I think what is worse than a society that appears to not honor it’s commitments, is a society that looks up to and is interested in a very small group of people in a fictional place called “Hollywood.”
I’ve interviewed and personally met many of these people. And I can promise you, nothing is what you think it is.

I also think children can thrive in a one parent household. I, myself, would have happily adopted or otherwise had I never married. I also think you have to account for the fact that man is an animal. And some of those animals are just not meant to be managomous. Sex drives. Procreation drives. And while some of us seem to have crawled out of the sludge, there will always be a part of our population that can’t seem to rid themselves of their primal instincts. I don’t think those celebrities are asking if you approve. Nor do you have any real idea what led them to the place they are at. By suggesting that they are examples…simply for staring in films, or recording a song…is absurd.
…great post. Lots to think about here.

and I began to reply:

Hey Ms. Queen! Primarily, I am discouraged by this apparent worship of the “famous and beautiful”. People are going to do their own thing, and we’re not always going to agree with it. But this culture is obsessed with the gory details of these people. I find it sad. And you are right, we (or at least I) do not know the real inside scoop. Except they were all at my house the other week and told me. No. Not really. I am sure they don’t care if I approve at all. They’d find me quite pedestrian, and absurdly conventional. Fine with me. And they most likely didn’t ever think their daily poops would end up in the grocery check out mag rack when they started their careers. However. I feel that no matter how public or non-public a life is, we owe each other as much as we can muster. Which seemingly for some of us, may not be much. We don’t operate in a vacuum. Each choice of each person on this planet, in my humble and often ill-informed opinion, causes a ripple effect that reaches out for miles and miles. Right down to one of my children, or yours, one day. And when they read that stuff in the grocery check out, right there at eye level for them to see, it adds to who they are and who they may become, if ever so slightly. No matter whay I say, or how I explain, they’ve seen that so-n-so just cheated on so-n-so with 2 guys at some bar in NY, complete with mostly naked picture, and now spouse is yelling divorce, or going cheat, too, or did, or whatever. Is all this true? Probably not, or at least not entirely. But as you stated, our worship of this tiny, fictional corner of society puts it all out there for all to see, and for children, to ingest. I’m sure it’s a 2 way street. They live publicly. The public craves the details on Britney’s latest antics at a bar with her newborn. Poof. Front page rumors. On something that if you or I ever did, we couldn’t pay someone to care about. Or could we? Now that’s idea for some extra cash…

And on the state of man in general. I respect your opinion here. I disagree with the assumption that some of man just can’t keep it in their pants (or keep their skirts down), because we are man. But I understand what you state. For me, and this most assuredly has much to do with my faith (Which I understand you not to share? Again, respected differences.), all of man has the ability to be better, to distance themselves from the rest of the animal kingdom. Clearly some don’t choose to, but they could. I agree when you say some just won’t pass primal. What gives us the possibility of soaring higher than my dog is the ability to say no to the primal. According to my beliefs, man is created to be able to rise above these urges. So I expect more. I want more. I can’t ask it of those who don’t adopt my faith, as they cannot be held accountable to a standard they don’t buy. But I don’t have to like what appears to be evidence of how they live. And Lord knows, I hope it’s not as bad as it often seems. Public persona or not. I could have the same gripe with my neighbor. They wouldn’t care, but I could have the gripe. And you are right. It certainly seems some of us just threw a slimy leg over the edge of land, and the behavior corresponds.

For me, adoption or insemination without being married wouldn’t have been an option. So clearly, I tie “family” up in a big traditional, preacher/rabbi blessed bow. But again, I know this is my take on things, and not everyone’s. And not yours, as you state. I only mention it here to further explain my perspective when I begin to contemplate the consequences of some of what seems to be happening in the world. I fully understand that my choices can’t be, would never be, those of each and every other soul on our planet, but I want to see traditional families. In my faith, (again, it’s mine, not yours or everyone else’s, so I’m not forcing it down unwilling throats, just talking from my bank of feelings), a mom and a dad are ideal. What a child needs. Can a family thrive without this ideal? I certainly think so. And know, like you do, many who do. But from this personal perspective, I will naturally feel a sadness, a disappointment, when I observe this ideal, my ideal, my opinion of God’s ideal (and I’m saying it clearly here, it’s my opinion of God’s ideal), not being able to be met. And I’m hoping and praying that our children are able to live, want to live, this ideal.

Alright, now I’ve gone on to rambling and making sure I cover the bases of not offending anyone ever with my opinions. Enough. Clearly I come from a pretty conventional, Christian perspective. Clearly, we all don’t. And I hope clearly, it is not being conveyed that I think less of anyone that doesn’t line up with me head to toe. So I’ll stop trying to make sure any one who ever stops by here could never ever be offended by my opinions. I think that corresponds with the silly little quote of the day at the top of this page. I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody (Bill Cosby). We just have to be true to who we are, who we’re called to be, and conduct that life with respect to others, no matter the differences. No need to apologize for that, but boy, I sure do try sometimes.