Ding Ding Ding! Spain’s reigning Queen has come back with a serious left hook (ha, I made a pun there). And although we seem to have an empty stadium, I’m going to try to worm in around the points, as they happen, as it’s getting hard to do it the other way, dissertation for dissertation. Here goes:
Queen: Um. I think you just proved my point. “A good family life, of any kind, always benefits a child. Even if it’s not the one I’d pick (the family life, not the child, I’d pick those babies in a minute). Real love and affection, and security from a family that may not fit my ideal traditional preference, wins over a lousy, kid beating, impoverished, 2 parents of opposite sex and married but screaming at eachother all the time family any day.”
Me: OK, agreeing that some things (like the welfare of children) are more important than standing on principle doesn’t mean I’ve come over. And I’m doing my damndest not to prove your points, so ouch. No. Any where we can agree is good with me. I like finding the points of agreement, with anyone. Even you. Really, I type in jest here.
Queen: Thats what I’m trying to say. So if good family life, of any kind…wins…why the gripe about “…then comes marriage, then comes (fill in the blank) with a baby carriage? I’m surely going to ruffle many colorful feathers here, but I really wonder. When did we begin not only to accept, but celebrate, even envy, women and couples, who have children before they even talk walking down the aisle?”
Me: Because it was a good title, that flowed well into my little rant. Or in my world, it did. And it does cause me some concern that we, as a culture, are all so titillated by celebrity, that we don’t care a whit about what they may or may not be doing, as long as we can see pictures of it. As we mentioned before, that kind of obsession in itself is disturbing. Blend that with good cause for a rockin’ religious conservative freak out, and wow. You’ve got a humdinger there. I’m not sure that’s how you spell humdinger. But I will stand by my statement that this course we, as a culture, seem to be going down troubles me. Clearly, it is of no negative consequence to you, and I accept that. Again, I concede to agree to disagree. Respectfully. There is nothing that is going to go on here in blogland that will sway you, or me, from our convictions here. I just really don’t want to start dinner, so I’m still going.
Queen: I think your first paragraph answers your initial question. When did we begin to celebrate it? When women took it upon themselves to be nontraditional and take care of kids with our without a man. When they either had their own or took others in. When it became all about love, and not all about love as defined by a traditional conservative. Just all about love. That’s it. That’s all. You can’t try and define love. You can’t define it as only within a marriage between a man and a woman. You can’t try and define it as only with a walk down the aisle. [I will insert here, for ease of conversation flow, that I did not, nor do not, define love. Or what marriage is. What I will say here, and what will no doubt piss some people off, is that I believe God did. I know, I know, this opens a ginormous can of worms, but that is my belief. But what started this whole little debate was my beliefs. Which anyone who likes to can totally disagree with. That doesn’t threaten what I feel to be true, or make me not like them. Of course, by now, the converse may not be. By merely stating that little bomb above, I may have plenty of people (like all 3 who reads this) decide I am not like-worthy.] That’s the problem here. You started this entire discussion asking the question when we began to accept and celebrate anything other than the traditional way. We began to accept and celebrate when we (me, anyway) realized it was about love. Not your love. Not my love. But (insert person here’s) love. You can’t contain it. You can’t define it to only fit your head’s idea.
Me: I think we all end up defining it to fit into our head’s ideas. In some way, shape or form. Some just have broader definitions, and others narrower. Oops. I used the word narrow in relation to myself. Does that count as right-hooking my own chin? Yikes. Anyway. Maybe none of us should do said defining of love, but we’re human, and somehow do. If we didn’t, none of these sorts of conversations would even occur.
Queen: As for the idea that most of us Non Christians find the judgemental Christians coming off as
“we’re better”–it’s not all in my head. You said it was a very subtle difference. And when you start trying to legislate or make me think anyone but the traditional mom and dad family is “not right” it goes from subtle to pushy.
Me: 1. Are you saying that I did, in fact, move from subtle to pushy? Or are you speaking in generalized terms concerning many Christians you know, or have come in contact with. 2. Either way, and I do hope it’s the latter, and you are dead on. It is not all in your head. I hope I didn’t convey that at some point. I see it too. All the time. And it pisses me off. Christians amongst themselves go at it all the time. A waste of energy. Why can’t we just go with the things we do agree on? Any of us? Haven’t you heard the joke about Christians being the only army that kills its own wounded? Anyway. I can rant all I want. You can rant all you want. But at the end of the day, I’m trying to talk about issues that bother me, not specific people. I named names in this case (the celebrities) because it just so happened it was their pictures associated with the issue at hand. And I don’t know them. And I’m not going to hurt them in my tiny corner of cyber-space (although, maybe it doesn’t matter - maybe I should never name names). You do this too, I think, have a little rant now and then, and not get specific. Except for that woman knitting in her car. I’m pretty sure that was specific. And your finger was specific.
Queen: Did I mention I’m married. To a man. With two kids? I’m not unlike you my dear. Not at all. And I think you need to remember that neither is the nontraditional family.
Me: Oh yeah. I knew that. I’ve been over to your site quite a bit. I like it. The Kaiser? Your son? Pumpkin? Yep. Pretty square. Just like us. Or real close. My hubby and I don’t share the Playboy thing. Remember? We’re prudes. Christians are renown for being sexually oppressed. I’m sure they’re are tons of jokes I could recall, but I can’t right now.
Queen: You need to get to know some of us. We do laundry, carpool to school, and sign permission slips. We pack lunches and change diapers and care and love just the same. Our lives are just as boring and just as domestic. I think thats where the real confusion may be. That it can’t possibly be true that these families are much more like yours than they are different.
Me: Alright. This is sounding like yall are somewhere on some other planet, and we are off on our little judgemental piece of space, and never the twain shall meet (what is a twain?), because we won’t open up long enough to get to know you. I just don’t see it that way. Really. I already see us all in the big ol’ mess of raising children and having families and doing the laundry, and signing the slips, and picking up the dog poop, together. I didn’t think I needed to stop and make an effort to get to know you, or others like you, because at least around here, we already find ourselves friends with all sorts of families, some even seemingly crazy liberal like yours (I’m still grinning here). I wasn’t aware of being really out to lunch on the differences any of us may have. And the more people you know, obviously, the more differences we’ll have. Just because I expressed a cultural concern doesn’t mean I hole up, thinking the the entire earth is going to revolve around my little perspective, and when it doesn’t, I ain’t going out there. And then God forbid I talk with anyone who would ever hold an opinion different that mine. I think I said earlier, in an email, that it is good, to me, to get to know all sorts of people from all walks of life, even *gasp* liberal ones. I really love R2Ks, and she puts liberal right there at the top of her blog! But worse, really, she won’t ever eat a cheeseburger with me. It’s sad, really. But this stuff stretches me. Grows me a bit. Confirms some things, and changes others. I was just expressing an opinion in the same way any of us do. I didn’t understand, or I didn’t agree with something, so I said it.
I didn’t just come right out and say “all those who partake of this way of life and don’t align with me in entirity are just wrong, dead wrong”. I said certain things make me gag. Or mad. Or I’m fed up. But I didn’t point a finger and just say “you are wrong”. I was trying, again, to express my opinion. And in spite of something you’ve had to say before, that “its like religion or politics. Either you tolerate and listen to the other side’s reasons, or you act like an ass and try and convert everyone to your ways. Admittedly I think all cry-it-out parents are wrong. But it works for them. So who am I to tell them not too? I also think Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. are wrong…but so long as they are happy and not hurting me, live and let live baby. (Republicans suck too, by the way)”, and that I have done the crying it out, and am Christian, and even *forgive me* voted Republican before, if I could get to blogher, I’d love to meet you, and many others face to face, go have a drink, and lots of guffaws. No political/cultural/religious quizzes involved. Because I don’t think I act like an ass and try to convert any one else. Just don’t make me say that F word. You can say it. I am just too much my Momma’s girl to do it.
This probably concludes our little isolated cyber-space bounce around the ring. I think it’s safe to say that all opinions are personal, and not meaning to be foisted upon another. I can avoid dinner no longer. Any input is still welcome, unless it’s ugly to me or the Queen. You can say it, but as she says, say it nicely. Good evening and good weekend.
